Great headline

Can not wait to watch this when I get home. Earth shattering stuff right here.

It is Tweezer -> Prince Caspian, damn it.

It's also one of the truly finest half-hours of the past seven years.

Tweezer is still better than the Prince Caspian, but the Caspian's peak is completely effortless...

If 29 mins on doesn't get you going, I don't know what to do for you.

From the 6:15-7:30 mark of Caspian it sounded, to me, like Trey's guitar was underwater. F'ing sick.
11:05 Trey starts hitting that string bend over and over, and that's when I knew things were about to take flight in the near future. At the 12:30 mark it starts to really build momentum, and by the 13:17 mark it just gets nasty.
And then it was that riff at 13:40 that Trey just keeps going, add to it Mike booming the entire venue with his bass, and man I lost it. May have been a tear of joy because I didn't know what else to do. It was that or my head was going to explode.
That was one of the defining moments of Magnaball for me.
Fuck man, I still get goosebumps listening to it.

it's awesome, and i think all the more so because the tweezer sounds like truncated bits of territory covered in CDT regularly - praise - and that it's caspian - my favorite, by far, since 9/14/00 (also an awesome set in total, and one in which, like @Mr_Draned says, Trey employs a swirling, underwater effect/tone)....

i also think it's cool that the segue is debatable (as opposed to the blossom CDT-> Tweezer because so many people, upon hearing those chords, start in with the 'aw man' vibe, only to be lifted by that crazy bending and transcendent peak rising....

i agree....

it's some of my favorite phish - and i'd toss it back to whenever....

sorry: speaking of truncated - posted a mess above.

it's awesome, and i think all the more so because the tweezer sounds like truncated bits of territory covered in CDT regularly - praise - and that it's caspian - my favorite, by far, since 9/14/00 (also an awesome set in total, and one in which, like @Mr_Draned says, Trey employs a swirling, underwater effect/tone) - that sets the couplet apart....

i also think it's cool that the segue is debatable (as opposed to the blossom CDT-> Tweezer because so many people, upon hearing those chords, start in with the 'aw man' vibe, only to be lifted by that crazy bending and transcendent peak rising....

i agree....

it's some of my favorite phish - and i'd toss it back to whenever....

Definitely a highlight of my phish-going experience. My only problem with the SBDs are that Mike's brilliance really doesn't come through. He was at the helm for the major jams on 8-21 and 22 and unless you really listen it doesn't come through. Especially at the peak of this Caspian. Hoping for some good matrix of the mp3!

Still trying to rearrange my puddled face after it melted in Watkins

LOL 2:35 glow stick direct hit on crane cam. Best Glow. Stick Wars. Ever.

Oh, and great music too.

This is the best Phish I've seen in I don't know how many years. I was there and biased but still.

Am I the only one who thinks it goes back into a tweezer jam?

@Monroro said:

This is the best Phish I've seen in I don't know how many years. I was there and biased but still.

Am I the only one who thinks it goes back into a tweezer jam?

No. Some posit it's a Tweezer, one of the finest of late, with a Caspian contained within. It's a tough position to aruge. In fact, I think it's rather easy to defend. The classic segues are so slow and thoughtful, incorporating bits of both songs in 'space' for a while (sort of like SOAM -> Have Mercy -> SOAM). There's no Capsian in the 'first' Tweezer. There is most certainly Tweezer in the Caspian.

@raidcehlalred said:

There's no Capsian in the 'first' Tweezer. There is most certainly Tweezer in the Caspian.

@WickerAndCork said:

LOL 2:35 glow stick direct hit on crane cam. Best Glow. Stick Wars. Ever.

Great Went says no.

I was almost to the point of letting a behind the scenes email dialog with the .net team and others in the community go into the dark recesses of cyberspace. But, now that I see "Tweezerpants" headlined, I believe I've been baited to post important thoughts on this epic jam...

To Who's in Charge?,

In the end, too much thought and energy was devoured in the breakdown and discussion to just let IT go without passing the argument (which is now becoming a crusade) to change the 8/22 Watkin's "Tweezer> Caspian" set list sequence to "Tweezer> Prince Caspian> Tweezer". In an effort to plead our continuing quest for defining the truth in Phishtory, I am taking the liberty to recycle some past email dialog that originated the moment the 8/22 set list was posted on .net a few weeks ago. Big Props to my man Bushcow, aka Bakesaleboy as the originator & inspiration for this crusade. We will not rest until the other "> Tweezer" is added! ...

Breaking IT down, IT does return to Tweezer. With full participation at "some level" from the entire band. Here are the facts (as I hear them anyway)...

The "shift" back to Tweezer happens as follows:

1) Fishman's Tweezer beat around 7:12

2) Trey with clear Tweezer riff at 7:33 (in G instead of A, using MuFX + Whammy?) Similar effect treatment to this year's Alpine Tweezer, btw. Please, Check this out as another point of reference, as other documented versions are relevant facts in the foundation of any argument.

We are safely established back in Tweezer at this point and the Jam continues in G and moves into C/G along the way. But, if you need more circumstantial evidence...

3) Page enters with "Roll with the Changes -aka Keep on Rolling" progression clearly around 14:00ish (in C) Also, on display in a varied form this year's Alpine Tweezer. (again, contemporary styling's are relevant)

4) Mike dropping those huge Tweezer envelope bass Bombs toward end (in this case meatball C bass notes, signaling the later to come Reprise, of course)

That's it! All 4 members playing some form or fashion of Tweezer.

Now, the only argument to tilt my head and give me pause... is that Fuckerpants is basically a G / C foundation, so they may argue they never really left the progression structure. But, that's a very weak argument given the situation and circumstantial facts above. If they want their cake... it should be should be renamed "Tweezerpants Jam". But, it's a "Tweezer jam". Hey, The Music don't lie!

###
Most of the notes above are cut & paste from emails to an unnamed .net editor over the past few weeks (who actually agrees with us, BTW). Join the cause, as 20 years later, we don't want the next generation believing it's a straight up Caspian, do we? Use any or all of this argument to help correct Phistory!

@WickerAndCork said:

LOL 2:35 glow stick direct hit on crane cam. Best Glow. Stick Wars. Ever.

Oh, and great music too.

IT glowstick war during Ghost was pretty HUGE!

Damn right, Gumby. A shame that what is being regarded as the best Fuckerpants ever is actually just a Tweezer jam. Lol.

@GUMBY said:

I was almost to the point of letting a behind the scenes email dialog with the .net team and others in the community go into the dark recesses of cyberspace. But, now that I see "Tweezerpants" headlined, I believe I've been baited to post important thoughts on this epic jam...

To Who's in Charge?,

In the end, too much thought and energy was devoured in the breakdown and discussion to just let IT go without passing the argument (which is now becoming a crusade) to change the 8/22 Watkin's "Tweezer> Caspian" set list sequence to "Tweezer> Prince Caspian> Tweezer". In an effort to plead our continuing quest for defining the truth in Phishtory, I am taking the liberty to recycle some past email dialog that originated the moment the 8/22 set list was posted on .net a few weeks ago. Big Props to my man Bushcow, aka Bakesaleboy as the originator & inspiration for this crusade. We will not rest until the other "> Tweezer" is added! ...

Breaking IT down, IT does return to Tweezer. With full participation at "some level" from the entire band. Here are the facts (as I hear them anyway)...

The "shift" back to Tweezer happens as follows:

1) Fishman's Tweezer beat around 7:12

2) Trey with clear Tweezer riff at 7:33 (in G instead of A, using MuFX + Whammy?) Similar effect treatment to this year's Alpine Tweezer, btw. Please, Check this out as another point of reference, as other documented versions are relevant facts in the foundation of any argument.

We are safely established back in Tweezer at this point and the Jam continues in G and moves into C/G along the way. But, if you need more circumstantial evidence...

3) Page enters with "Roll with the Changes -aka Keep on Rolling" progression clearly around 14:00ish (in C) Also, on display in a varied form this year's Alpine Tweezer. (again, contemporary styling's are relevant)

4) Mike dropping those huge Tweezer envelope bass Bombs toward end (in this case meatball C bass notes, signaling the later to come Reprise, of course)

That's it! All 4 members playing some form or fashion of Tweezer.

Now, the only argument to tilt my head and give me pause... is that Fuckerpants is basically a G / C foundation, so they may argue they never really left the progression structure. But, that's a very weak argument given the situation and circumstantial facts above. If they want their cake... it should be should be renamed "Tweezerpants Jam". But, it's a "Tweezer jam". Hey, The Music don't lie!

###
Most of the notes above are cut & paste from emails to an unnamed .net editor over the past few weeks (who actually agrees with us, BTW). Join the cause, as 20 years later, we don't want the next generation believing it's a straight up Caspian, do we? Use any or all of this argument to help correct Phistory!

montaigne 8/25/15 11:01 am, attached to 2015-08-22

The setlist is not labeled correctly. It should be Tweezer> Caspian> Tweezer.

The jam after Caspian is a Tweezer jam and has nothing to do with Prince Caspian. Essentially, this is a really great Tweezer (possibly the best of the modern era imo) with a Prince Caspian thrown in the middle.

@GUMBY said:

I was almost to the point of letting a behind the scenes email dialog with the .net team and others in the community go into the dark recesses of cyberspace. But, now that I see "Tweezerpants" headlined, I believe I've been baited to post important thoughts on this epic jam...

To Who's in Charge?,

In the end, too much thought and energy was devoured in the breakdown and discussion to just let IT go without passing the argument (which is now becoming a crusade) to change the 8/22 Watkin's "Tweezer> Caspian" set list sequence to "Tweezer> Prince Caspian> Tweezer". In an effort to plead our continuing quest for defining the truth in Phishtory, I am taking the liberty to recycle some past email dialog that originated the moment the 8/22 set list was posted on .net a few weeks ago. Big Props to my man Bushcow, aka Bakesaleboy as the originator & inspiration for this crusade. We will not rest until the other "> Tweezer" is added! ...

Breaking IT down, IT does return to Tweezer. With full participation at "some level" from the entire band. Here are the facts (as I hear them anyway)...

The "shift" back to Tweezer happens as follows:

1) Fishman's Tweezer beat around 7:12

2) Trey with clear Tweezer riff at 7:33 (in G instead of A, using MuFX + Whammy?) Similar effect treatment to this year's Alpine Tweezer, btw. Please, Check this out as another point of reference, as other documented versions are relevant facts in the foundation of any argument.

We are safely established back in Tweezer at this point and the Jam continues in G and moves into C/G along the way. But, if you need more circumstantial evidence...

3) Page enters with "Roll with the Changes -aka Keep on Rolling" progression clearly around 14:00ish (in C) Also, on display in a varied form this year's Alpine Tweezer. (again, contemporary styling's are relevant)

4) Mike dropping those huge Tweezer envelope bass Bombs toward end (in this case meatball C bass notes, signaling the later to come Reprise, of course)

That's it! All 4 members playing some form or fashion of Tweezer.

Now, the only argument to tilt my head and give me pause... is that Fuckerpants is basically a G / C foundation, so they may argue they never really left the progression structure. But, that's a very weak argument given the situation and circumstantial facts above. If they want their cake... it should be should be renamed "Tweezerpants Jam". But, it's a "Tweezer jam". Hey, The Music don't lie!

###
Most of the notes above are cut & paste from emails to an unnamed .net editor over the past few weeks (who actually agrees with us, BTW). Join the cause, as 20 years later, we don't want the next generation believing it's a straight up Caspian, do we? Use any or all of this argument to help correct Phistory!

@GUMBY said:

I was almost to the point of letting a behind the scenes email dialog with the .net team and others in the community go into the dark recesses of cyberspace. But, now that I see "Tweezerpants" headlined, I believe I've been baited to post important thoughts on this epic jam...

To Who's in Charge?,

In the end, too much thought and energy was devoured in the breakdown and discussion to just let IT go without passing the argument (which is now becoming a crusade) to change the 8/22 Watkin's "Tweezer> Caspian" set list sequence to "Tweezer> Prince Caspian> Tweezer". In an effort to plead our continuing quest for defining the truth in Phishtory, I am taking the liberty to recycle some past email dialog that originated the moment the 8/22 set list was posted on .net a few weeks ago. Big Props to my man Bushcow, aka Bakesaleboy as the originator & inspiration for this crusade. We will not rest until the other "> Tweezer" is added! ...

Breaking IT down, IT does return to Tweezer. With full participation at "some level" from the entire band. Here are the facts (as I hear them anyway)...

The "shift" back to Tweezer happens as follows:

1) Fishman's Tweezer beat around 7:12

2) Trey with clear Tweezer riff at 7:33 (in G instead of A, using MuFX + Whammy?) Similar effect treatment to this year's Alpine Tweezer, btw. Please, Check this out as another point of reference, as other documented versions are relevant facts in the foundation of any argument.

We are safely established back in Tweezer at this point and the Jam continues in G and moves into C/G along the way. But, if you need more circumstantial evidence...

3) Page enters with "Roll with the Changes -aka Keep on Rolling" progression clearly around 14:00ish (in C) Also, on display in a varied form this year's Alpine Tweezer. (again, contemporary styling's are relevant)

4) Mike dropping those huge Tweezer envelope bass Bombs toward end (in this case meatball C bass notes, signaling the later to come Reprise, of course)

That's it! All 4 members playing some form or fashion of Tweezer.

Now, the only argument to tilt my head and give me pause... is that Fuckerpants is basically a G / C foundation, so they may argue they never really left the progression structure. But, that's a very weak argument given the situation and circumstantial facts above. If they want their cake... it should be should be renamed "Tweezerpants Jam". But, it's a "Tweezer jam". Hey, The Music don't lie!

###
Most of the notes above are cut & paste from emails to an unnamed .net editor over the past few weeks (who actually agrees with us, BTW). Join the cause, as 20 years later, we don't want the next generation believing it's a straight up Caspian, do we? Use any or all of this argument to help correct Phistory!

I...don't see it. I've thought about it, because *obviously* Tweezer -> Caspian -> Tweezer (-> Jam) looks dope as hell and would turn eyeballs far more than Tweezer -> Caspian would, but it's just not that. To wit:

1. Yes, Fish plays the Tweezer beat midway through. That's obvious. That's why there's a Tweezer tease listed.

2. Now here's where things get a bit tripped up - Trey *hints* at the Tweezer riff. He never outright plays it, he hints at it. Go back and listen to the 8/14/15 Tweezer -> NO2 -> Tweezer. He hints at it much the same way he does at Caspian, then plays a *much clearer version of the Tweezer riff* at the end. That's very clearly a -> back into Tweezer. Much less clearer here.

3. What Page and Mike do after they supposedly get back into Tweezer is totally irrelevant. That's Type II land.

4. Re: the Caspian jam actually being a Tweezer jam - by that logic, when they go into Slave to the Traffic Light in the 12/9/94 Tweezer (and that is roughly *ten thousand times* more clearly Slave than the jam in the 8/22/15 Caspian is Tweezer), it should really be marked as Tweezer -> Slave to the Traffic Light -> Jam. That ain't how this works. It might *sound* like a jam that comes out of a Tweezer, but it isn't.

I ain't unsympathetic to this position, believe me. But the evidence just isn't enough to support it. We have more legendary Tweezers than you can shake a stick at. Let this legendary Caspian be.

Yes, I meant 8/15/15 Tweezer -> NO2 -> Tweezer, not 8/14/15. Whoopsies.

What this case is missing (at least according to these posts), is some instances of established precedent. I have not done a thorough perusal of multiple instances of Tweezer in a single show on the .net, but I know there are many. Are those cases so different than this one? The first example I randomly explored, the little Tweezerfest on 7/13/94 (setlist below). The sbd can be followed on Phistracks. Following Tweezer -> Julius, the band clearly returns to the Tweezer theme (after 6:36 of Julius), but do they do so as an entire unit? And given that after about 10 seconds they go to some jazzy interplay that's clearly more like Julius than it is like Tweezer, why is Tweezer listed at all in the setlist and not considered a tease? Or if it's not a tease, why not Tweezer-> Julius-> Tweezer-> Julius? The answer we might give in support of the existing listing for 7/13/94 is that Tweezer is or was the jam vehicle, and the tendency with sandwiched songs is to list the return to the theme of the originating song/jam vehicle in question as a full fledged setlist item. I'm sure there are other instances that better establish precedent here. All of which is to say, I'm not trying to take anything away from Prince Fuckerpants, and I've always kind of liked the guy. It just seems to me that in so doing we're neglecting a pretty hefty case-file with respect to the ol' Queen Tweez.

ORRRR

Trey needs to play the full Tweezer riff in key to qualify as a setlist-worthy return to Tweezer proper, however brief. ...?

YES! THIS IS MONEY!! How in the hell can this be labeled Julius -> Tweezer and the other not, AT THE VERY LEAST, Fuckerpants -> Tweezer Jam??!! There is less Tweezer actually played in the Big Birch example.

Corrections need to be made!

Phighting the good phight,

BakeSaleBoy

@andrewrose said:

What this case is missing (at least according to these posts), is some instances of established precedent. I have not done a thorough perusal of multiple instances of Tweezer in a single show on the .net, but I know there are many. Are those cases so different than this one? The first example I randomly explored, the little Tweezerfest on 7/13/94 (setlist below). The sbd can be followed on Phistracks. Following Tweezer -> Julius, the band clearly returns to the Tweezer theme (after 6:36 of Julius), but do they do so as an entire unit? And given that after about 10 seconds they go to some jazzy interplay that's clearly more like Julius than it is like Tweezer, why is Tweezer listed at all in the setlist and not considered a tease? Or if it's not a tease, why not Tweezer-> Julius-> Tweezer-> Julius? The answer we might give in support of the existing listing for 7/13/94 is that Tweezer is or was the jam vehicle, and the tendency with sandwiched songs is to list the return to the theme of the originating song/jam vehicle in question as a full fledged setlist item. I'm sure there are other instances that better establish precedent here. All of which is to say, I'm not trying to take anything away from Prince Fuckerpants, and I've always kind of liked the guy. It just seems to me that in so doing we're neglecting a pretty hefty case-file with respect to the ol' Queen Tweez.

ORRRR

Trey needs to play the full Tweezer riff in key to qualify as a setlist-worthy return to Tweezer proper, however brief. ...?

@ 1994-07-13

I could be totally alone here, and that's fine. To the contributors, both staff and mega-fans, I totally respect your opinions. (Especially to you all writing here.) But I've always found the type-II designation sort of pedantic and embarrassing. I was born after the Dead were playing their coolest music, but I started seeing Phish when they began creating theirs; and I never heard of the designation until - I don't know even know when. So there is that.

But say one wants to use that argument here (that 'They've gone type-II;' it's strange to type). Well that doesn't add up.

Because from at 24.00 (above) through Trey at 25.20 or whatever.... He's totally reentered Tweezer - using effects to 'echo' the riff, no less. And Mike is totally with him. The band is clearly back in Tweezer. Type-II playing (or jamming) has nothing to do with it, as they are clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure.

That there are many legendary Tweezers has nothing to do with it either (I say this since 'logic' was mentioned / that position has no basis in logic).

And I'll read anything anyone wants to post about cool jams and how they should be labeled; but using another show as 'evidence' doesn't hold up either.

The band leaves Tweezer for Caspian. And they leave Caspian for Tweezer (with Trey, before, and quite near those major bass bombs, flirting heavily with Reprise - Page too). They simply decide to shred, instead, inside the easily recognized confines of a song structure.

And we know what song that is.

more good stuff as usual.

another convincing example is the incredible 95 binghamton show. the tweezer-> timber-> tweezer works well because the timber intro is as jarring (actually far more so - but i mean 'noticeable') as caspian, before the band leaves timber for tweezer (briefly) to continue through the Ramones arena-rock 'theme,' as opposed to 'tweezer,' that pervades the rest of the set.

and there, as you point out, several others.

here's to more music like this.... and for caspian to make a Dustian case for itself; true to the tune, pants is just along for the ride....

@andrewrose said:

What this case is missing (at least according to these posts), is some instances of established precedent. I have not done a thorough perusal of multiple instances of Tweezer in a single show on the .net, but I know there are many. Are those cases so different than this one? The first example I randomly explored, the little Tweezerfest on 7/13/94 (setlist below). The sbd can be followed on Phistracks. Following Tweezer -> Julius, the band clearly returns to the Tweezer theme (after 6:36 of Julius), but do they do so as an entire unit? And given that after about 10 seconds they go to some jazzy interplay that's clearly more like Julius than it is like Tweezer, why is Tweezer listed at all in the setlist and not considered a tease? Or if it's not a tease, why not Tweezer-> Julius-> Tweezer-> Julius? The answer we might give in support of the existing listing for 7/13/94 is that Tweezer is or was the jam vehicle, and the tendency with sandwiched songs is to list the return to the theme of the originating song/jam vehicle in question as a full fledged setlist item. I'm sure there are other instances that better establish precedent here. All of which is to say, I'm not trying to take anything away from Prince Fuckerpants, and I've always kind of liked the guy. It just seems to me that in so doing we're neglecting a pretty hefty case-file with respect to the ol' Queen Tweez.

ORRRR

Trey needs to play the full Tweezer riff in key to qualify as a setlist-worthy return to Tweezer proper, however brief. ...?

@ 1994-07-13

@GUMBY said:

Join the cause, as 20 years later, we don't want the next generation believing it's a straight up Caspian, do we? Use any or all of this argument to help correct Phistory!

Meh. I'm for letting the much and unduly maligned Fuckerpants have its day in the sun.

Well, I have been on board for the set list to read tweezer> caspian> tweezer since I first heard it. I was listening to it again last night and had a thought. If bl002e posted "caspian" from about the 7:30 mark on as the Monday Mystery Jam, what song would you say it is? Would anyone actually say it was Caspian? I think most everyone would say it's tweezer until the end.....but that's just to my ears! Either way, it was freaking incredible. I love the section towards the end when trey drops out, let's mike play for a second and they comes roaring back in....chill producing!

@raidcehlalred said:

I could be totally alone here, and that's fine. To the contributors, both staff and mega-fans, I totally respect your opinions. (Especially to you all writing here.) But I've always found the type-II designation sort of pedantic and embarrassing. I was born after the Dead were playing their coolest music, but I started seeing Phish when they began creating theirs; and I never heard of the designation until - I don't know even know when. So there is that.

But say one wants to use that argument here (that 'They've gone type-II;' it's strange to type). Well that doesn't add up.

Because from at 24.00 (above) through Trey at 25.20 or whatever.... He's totally reentered Tweezer - using effects to 'echo' the riff, no less. And Mike is totally with him. The band is clearly back in Tweezer. Type-II playing (or jamming) has nothing to do with it, as they are clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure.

That there are many legendary Tweezers has nothing to do with it either (I say this since 'logic' was mentioned / that position has no basis in logic).

And I'll read anything anyone wants to post about cool jams and how they should be labeled; but using another show as 'evidence' doesn't hold up either.

The band leaves Tweezer for Caspian. And they leave Caspian for Tweezer (with Trey, before, and quite near those major bass bombs, flirting heavily with Reprise - Page too). They simply decide to shred, instead, inside the easily recognized confines of a song structure.

And we know what song that is.

Practically this entire post is in reply to what I wrote. Gotta hit that "reply" button, man.

1. I kinda find the whole "Type II" thing embarrassing too, mainly b/c it leads to a lot of "h3tty jams uber alles" fans that can miss the forest for the trees, but that's not really why I brought it up. I brought it up because @GUMBY's corollary arguments w/r/t Mike and Page playing Tweezer are irrelevant. The band, itself, was in a jam that was neither Caspian NOR Tweezer at that point. You're telling me that hose jam at the end of Caspian is "clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure" of ANY song Phish has wrote? I gotta hear this song, it rules!

2. The position that you state isn't based in logic wasn't meant to be; it was meant to be a droll throwaway closing sentence. It wouldn't affect my life very much at all if Caspian had this jam "taken away from it". I'll note that the position I DID invoke logic over was not rebutted at all in your reply.

3. The reason to bring up other shows as "evidence" is because a) there is precedent for Tweezer sandwiches, lots and lots of it, and b) it's worth noting how the setlist team dealt with that precedent in the past. It's human beings that make the .net setlists. They're not just handed down from on high (far from it, actually).

4. One last thing - you ever buy shows from LivePhish.com? Whenever there's a Tweezer sandwich, they will *always* create a new track for the second Tweezer, because they, too, have had to deal with Tweezer sandwiches before. 2/20/93. Bomb Factory. 12/14/95 (as noted above). 7/27/14. 8/15/15. Every last one of them accounts for a second Tweezer when there's a second Tweezer track to be made.

Magnaball Tweezer -> Caspian? No second Tweezer track. Maybe .net's team aren't the only people we should be taking this up with?

I did; well, at least I thought I did. Then I tried to cut the more succint points and just butchered the thing - sorry. It wasn't some 'covert' shot. I read all your stuff. In fact, if it wasn't for your recent bit comparing the recent DWD to the Went Gin (man do I get tired of those comparisons; I wouldn't have gone back - I've got DWD malaise). Off-topic, but I wasn't taken aback at first. Tired, I suppose. But it's all I've been listening too, lately.

At the end of the recording posted here - one of the reasons I look to your reviews is to see what I should buy - I do here Tweezer-prise. I honestly do.... Maybe it's the power of suggestion, but really up through Trey's decision to shred, I simply totally hear it from Page, and those bass notes from Mike.... But whatever. I could totally be wrong. Point is, you're right, it's not a song; it's the culmination of a song I considered Tweezer in the moment, and more so, after repeated listens.

Okay, droll: Agreed. You must admit that you write with confidence and verve; I just thought it weak, coming from you. It seemed more like fan-boy stuff than analysis.

Let me get to one point you raise, first. The Live Phish series is different from .com, correct? So it's kind of, regarding LP vs .com, apples and oranges, as those shows are, amazingly, available all but day of?

I'm totally new here. So your third point, particularly the parenthetical: I don't get it.

That said (or even without that said) regarding the '14 and '15 shows - that is a clever point. And perhaps you are right.

I did note that I'd be happy to read discussions regarding other song listings; I wasn't trying to bog down this site (despite how it probably seems).

Re: the Caspian jam actually being a Tweezer jam - by that logic, when they go into Slave to the Traffic Light in the 12/9/94 Tweezer (and that is roughly *ten thousand times* more clearly Slave than the jam in the 8/22/15 Caspian is Tweezer), it should really be marked as Tweezer -> Slave to the Traffic Light -> Jam. That ain't how this works. It might *sound* like a jam that comes out of a Tweezer, but it isn't.

First, one mistake, if that's what you're pointing out, doesn't justify another. Second, if you're pointing out a different running order, this sequence should look:

Tweezer> Caspian-> Tweezer-> Jam.

But again, I don't hear enough 'jam,' to warrant the designation. Jumping someone who wants to play off the word 'jam' with honey, or some other sweet food, I get it....

What I do hear is a clear reentry into Tweezer, some cool 'hose' ala Bing 95 (but FAR less so, I should note), with Page's chording (and the band's collective playing throughout - it wouldn't make fore a great standalone song) and such bringing to mind a familiar sound/structure.

I have some time now, but not that much. So I've called to mind shows I was at, and maybe haven't listened to in a while, like Ventura 97, with a different sandwich. And what I noticed is that ideas created in the Bowie emerge out of the Cities (and of course the Bowie too).

Or even Jones Beach 95 with a real DEG that you could hear.... The Tweezer that 'returns' isn't so much Tweezer as the ideas created in what "Y"ou call hose or whatnot.

(I still wish that copy sounded a bit better....)

That (the idea/or theme) even more than the Tweezer riff (which I did hear) is what informs my position.

And I do go into this sort of stuff looking to have my mind changed.

But take care. I hope there's new show material for you to analyze before Mexico.

@n00b100 said:

@raidcehlalred said:

I could be totally alone here, and that's fine. To the contributors, both staff and mega-fans, I totally respect your opinions. (Especially to you all writing here.) But I've always found the type-II designation sort of pedantic and embarrassing. I was born after the Dead were playing their coolest music, but I started seeing Phish when they began creating theirs; and I never heard of the designation until - I don't know even know when. So there is that.

But say one wants to use that argument here (that 'They've gone type-II;' it's strange to type). Well that doesn't add up.

Because from at 24.00 (above) through Trey at 25.20 or whatever.... He's totally reentered Tweezer - using effects to 'echo' the riff, no less. And Mike is totally with him. The band is clearly back in Tweezer. Type-II playing (or jamming) has nothing to do with it, as they are clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure.

That there are many legendary Tweezers has nothing to do with it either (I say this since 'logic' was mentioned / that position has no basis in logic).

And I'll read anything anyone wants to post about cool jams and how they should be labeled; but using another show as 'evidence' doesn't hold up either.

The band leaves Tweezer for Caspian. And they leave Caspian for Tweezer (with Trey, before, and quite near those major bass bombs, flirting heavily with Reprise - Page too). They simply decide to shred, instead, inside the easily recognized confines of a song structure.

And we know what song that is.

Practically this entire post is in reply to what I wrote. Gotta hit that "reply" button, man.

1. I kinda find the whole "Type II" thing embarrassing too, mainly b/c it leads to a lot of "h3tty jams uber alles" fans that can miss the forest for the trees, but that's not really why I brought it up. I brought it up because @GUMBY's corollary arguments w/r/t Mike and Page playing Tweezer are irrelevant. The band, itself, was in a jam that was neither Caspian NOR Tweezer at that point. You're telling me that hose jam at the end of Caspian is "clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure" of ANY song Phish has wrote? I gotta hear this song, it rules!

2. The position that you state isn't based in logic wasn't meant to be; it was meant to be a droll throwaway closing sentence. It wouldn't affect my life very much at all if Caspian had this jam "taken away from it". I'll note that the position I DID invoke logic over was not rebutted at all in your reply.

3. The reason to bring up other shows as "evidence" is because a) there is precedent for Tweezer sandwiches, lots and lots of it, and b) it's worth noting how the setlist team dealt with that precedent in the past. It's human beings that make the .net setlists. They're not just handed down from on high (far from it, actually).

4. One last thing - you ever buy shows from LivePhish.com? Whenever there's a Tweezer sandwich, they will *always* create a new track for the second Tweezer, because they, too, have had to deal with Tweezer sandwiches before. 2/20/93. Bomb Factory. 12/14/95 (as noted above). 7/27/14. 8/15/15. Every last one of them accounts for a second Tweezer when there's a second Tweezer track to be made.

Magnaball Tweezer -> Caspian? No second Tweezer track. Maybe .net's team aren't the only people we should be taking this up with?

Eidt: You didn't compare those songs I mentioned.... You just said you 'got it;' that's what piqued my interest -

@n00b100 said:

@raidcehlalred said:

I could be totally alone here, and that's fine. To the contributors, both staff and mega-fans, I totally respect your opinions. (Especially to you all writing here.) But I've always found the type-II designation sort of pedantic and embarrassing. I was born after the Dead were playing their coolest music, but I started seeing Phish when they began creating theirs; and I never heard of the designation until - I don't know even know when. So there is that.

But say one wants to use that argument here (that 'They've gone type-II;' it's strange to type). Well that doesn't add up.

Because from at 24.00 (above) through Trey at 25.20 or whatever.... He's totally reentered Tweezer - using effects to 'echo' the riff, no less. And Mike is totally with him. The band is clearly back in Tweezer. Type-II playing (or jamming) has nothing to do with it, as they are clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure.

That there are many legendary Tweezers has nothing to do with it either (I say this since 'logic' was mentioned / that position has no basis in logic).

And I'll read anything anyone wants to post about cool jams and how they should be labeled; but using another show as 'evidence' doesn't hold up either.

The band leaves Tweezer for Caspian. And they leave Caspian for Tweezer (with Trey, before, and quite near those major bass bombs, flirting heavily with Reprise - Page too). They simply decide to shred, instead, inside the easily recognized confines of a song structure.

And we know what song that is.

Practically this entire post is in reply to what I wrote. Gotta hit that "reply" button, man.

1. I kinda find the whole "Type II" thing embarrassing too, mainly b/c it leads to a lot of "h3tty jams uber alles" fans that can miss the forest for the trees, but that's not really why I brought it up. I brought it up because @GUMBY's corollary arguments w/r/t Mike and Page playing Tweezer are irrelevant. The band, itself, was in a jam that was neither Caspian NOR Tweezer at that point. You're telling me that hose jam at the end of Caspian is "clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure" of ANY song Phish has wrote? I gotta hear this song, it rules!

2. The position that you state isn't based in logic wasn't meant to be; it was meant to be a droll throwaway closing sentence. It wouldn't affect my life very much at all if Caspian had this jam "taken away from it". I'll note that the position I DID invoke logic over was not rebutted at all in your reply.

3. The reason to bring up other shows as "evidence" is because a) there is precedent for Tweezer sandwiches, lots and lots of it, and b) it's worth noting how the setlist team dealt with that precedent in the past. It's human beings that make the .net setlists. They're not just handed down from on high (far from it, actually).

4. One last thing - you ever buy shows from LivePhish.com? Whenever there's a Tweezer sandwich, they will *always* create a new track for the second Tweezer, because they, too, have had to deal with Tweezer sandwiches before. 2/20/93. Bomb Factory. 12/14/95 (as noted above). 7/27/14. 8/15/15. Every last one of them accounts for a second Tweezer when there's a second Tweezer track to be made.

Magnaball Tweezer -> Caspian? No second Tweezer track. Maybe .net's team aren't the only people we should be taking this up with?

@raidcehlalred said:

I did; well, at least I thought I did. Then I tried to cut the more succint points and just butchered the thing - sorry. It wasn't some 'covert' shot. I read all your stuff. In fact, if it wasn't for your recent bit comparing the recent DWD to the Went Gin (man do I get tired of those comparisons; I wouldn't have gone back - I've got DWD malaise). Off-topic, but I wasn't taken aback at first. Tired, I suppose. But it's all I've been listening too, lately.

At the end of the recording posted here - one of the reasons I look to your reviews is to see what I should buy - I do here Tweezer-prise. I honestly do.... Maybe it's the power of suggestion, but really up through Trey's decision to shred, I simply totally hear it from Page, and those bass notes from Mike.... But whatever. I could totally be wrong. Point is, you're right, it's not a song; it's the culmination of a song I considered Tweezer in the moment, and more so, after repeated listens.

Okay, droll: Agreed. You must admit that you write with confidence and verve; I just thought it weak, coming from you. It seemed more like fan-boy stuff than analysis.

Let me get to one point you raise, first. The Live Phish series is different from .com, correct? So it's kind of, regarding LP vs .com, apples and oranges, as those shows are, amazingly, available all but day of?

I'm totally new here. So your third point, particularly the parenthetical: I don't get it.

That said (or even without that said) regarding the '14 and '15 shows - that is a clever point. And perhaps you are right.

I did note that I'd be happy to read discussions regarding other song listings; I wasn't trying to bog down this site (despite how it probably seems).

Re: the Caspian jam actually being a Tweezer jam - by that logic, when they go into Slave to the Traffic Light in the 12/9/94 Tweezer (and that is roughly *ten thousand times* more clearly Slave than the jam in the 8/22/15 Caspian is Tweezer), it should really be marked as Tweezer -> Slave to the Traffic Light -> Jam. That ain't how this works. It might *sound* like a jam that comes out of a Tweezer, but it isn't.

First, one mistake, if that's what you're pointing out, doesn't justify another. Second, if you're pointing out a different running order, this sequence should look:

Tweezer> Caspian-> Tweezer-> Jam.

But again, I don't hear enough 'jam,' to warrant the designation. Jumping someone who wants to play off the word 'jam' with honey, or some other sweet food, I get it....

What I do hear is a clear reentry into Tweezer, some cool 'hose' ala Bing 95 (but FAR less so, I should note), with Page's chording (and the band's collective playing throughout - it wouldn't make fore a great standalone song) and such bringing to mind a familiar sound/structure.

I have some time now, but not that much. So I've called to mind shows I was at, and maybe haven't listened to in a while, like Ventura 97, with a different sandwich. And what I noticed is that ideas created in the Bowie emerge out of the Cities (and of course the Bowie too).

Or even Jones Beach 95 with a real DEG that you could hear.... The Tweezer that 'returns' isn't so much Tweezer as the ideas created in what "Y"ou call hose or whatnot.

(I still wish that copy sounded a bit better....)

That (the idea/or theme) even more than the Tweezer riff (which I did hear) is what informs my position.

And I do go into this sort of stuff looking to have my mind changed.

But take care. I hope there's new show material for you to analyze before Mexico.

That's fair enough. Apologies if I offended you in any way. Believe me, man, when I first heard it I thought it was Tweezer -> Caspian -> Tweezer too. If I still shared your opinion, I would be trumpeting it from the mountaintops. I'm already big enough on it being Tweezer -> Caspian instead of Tweezer > Caspian.

I smiled a bit at the "fan-boy stuff" line. I approach this music as a fan, first and foremost. Get me into a discussion about scales and IV-I and I'm totally lost.

W/R/T the setlist stuff - there's a team of folks that volunteer with .net responsible for curating the setlists. They put in the segues and determine if something is a tease or a jam and so on. They're also *decidedly* conservative in marking jams or segues. That has been complained about many times. Haha, wait a few months and something else like this will happen.

Yes, the LivePhish site is different from .net, but the people there (from what I understand) are just as big fanatics as everyone on here. They're a pretty good metric for how the setlists tend to go.

The Jones Beach '95 Tweezer is on a Live Bait in pristine SBD, so you should seek it out if you don't have it yet.

Sorry, I wasn't sure what songs you were comparing. Tweezer and Caspian? I'll take your word that they're in the same key; they sound pretty different in terms of tempo to me.

I'm more than willing to have my mind changed. My mind has changed on this band a lot.

Totally cool. I find it's only through interacting with - and reading the interactions of others who know what's up - that I change my mind.

Which is what I find most interesting.

That's why I started coming here, actually. My friends who I did shows with either can't, or (drag) lost interest during all the 3.0 nonsense. It's kind of boring to have these discussions with myself.

So it's cool, I hit shows with some other friends; but it's the same set I go see Desaparecidos or NMH with.

They just don't have Phish running through them.

It was weird; I'm a writer (I know: I should edit more here, but I'm too busy), yet I have no social media presence. This summer was it. So I'd write something, thinking I was just making an observation, or trying to get a reaction - in a positive way - and I'd get all these:

'I don't know what show you heard....' arrows. Total vehemence.

Which is cool; I guess.

Anyways....

I do have that Bait Board.... Obviously, it's because it's older: but anyone even relatively new is so spoiled. The .com shows sound freaking amazing. It's hard for me to listen to anything short of that quality.

Talk about a Western Dilemma. (I'm more Calvin or Rousseau?; I know nothing about shifting pitches, other than funny metaphors, like whales and such....)

But still. Maybe it was just my expectations.... But I contrast that sound with the Disease, which I've just put on again. And then Trey had such a different tone then, too.... Actually, that's why a lot of people I know left. They don't like the Ocelot.... For lack of a better way of explaining it.

I think they're crazy. Since they figured it out (sort of like those Dick's shows you were talking about, was it 11?) I just love the sound.

And it keeps getting warmer....

@n00b100 said: